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Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.01.06 16:23:00 -
[1]
According to Star Fraction ROE you will be treated as neutrals as long as you do not commit acts of aggression against Star Fraction vessels. Since we are an NRDS neutral-respecting entity this means we will not be engaging your ships regardless of your decision to acknowledge the corrupt and venal CVA "authority" in Providence in the terms of your wider "license".
Star Fraction encourages independent thought and personal aspiration and however much we disagree with your choice to constrain yourself to hunting only "CVA approved" pirate targets in Providence that is your choice to make. As indeed will the moment of conscience-searching choice inevitable when you find the first "CVA denied" pirate target in your sights and need to stay your trigger lest you end up on the wrong end of a standings enclosure purge for the "crime" of shooting one of their "friends in need".
Still these are your choices, discoveries and mistakes to make GoGo Yubari. As a neutral entity you have freedom to define your own policy and Star Fraction will treat you solely on your specific actions towards our ships and pilots.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 03:18:00 -
[2]
Its hardly polite to use GoGo Yubari's announcement as a forum for your personal politics and spin Anjinsansa. The public is doubtless completely aware of the divergent ROE practiced by SF and UK and it doesn't require your interjection and muddying the waters. Its quite ridiculous for you to suggest we'd be upset to see a neutral entity make its own targeting decisions when this is the essence of our ideology and vision for radical freespace in the Eve star cluster. You know perfectly well we are against the kind of standings enclosurism practiced by the CVA in Providence and it would be the height of hypocrisy to insist that a third party entity be forced to set our friends +standings for our own convenience. But then, I imagine the truth has never been a barrier to smear for aspirant CVA "holders" before.
If PAK ships engage Ushra'khan shipping in the sight of our vessels while offering no aggression to SF pilots then we will not get involved. It really is as simple as that. There is no complexity but the complexity of Sev3rance spin from your lips Anjinsansa. And this is the root of our vision for a genuine freespace political ideology besides: simply minding one's own business and giving neutrals the benefit of the doubt is the essence of our evolved political pragmatism that allows disparate pilots the option of choosing neutrality rather than needing to jump in line with the derived standings of a superior imperialist entity.
I take my time to correct you on these points Anjinsansa because the root of the dispute between Sev3rance and Star Fraction is as we all know, the failure of independent thought on the Sev3rance part when your pilot Dreamy choose to fire on SF vessels when our pilots were mis-reported as "hostile/pirate" in CVA combined intel channels.
The irony that you believe we'd have trouble practicing what we preach is doubly amusing when taken in comparison with your own organisational failure to acknowledge the neutral status of one of the earliest and most famous NRDS entities in the Star Cluster when encountering us in space. In short Anjinsansa, we are not going to be lectured on the nature of freespace or neutrality respecting ROE from a submissive alliance deriving its hostile roster from the CVA KOS list. You do not respect neutrals - you respect only those people that the CVA tell you can be neutral. You have no independent thought or voice. Please stop pretending you do.
Our declared intent in the short term is to restrict and damage Sev3rance military power in KBP system. By ensuring that you are incapable of doing the CVA's bidding we weaken the imperialist powers stranglehold in Providence by a significant degree. You did control one of the main entrances in the region and had routinely taken to locking down this pipe, thereby denying CVA-hostile traffic the opportunity to move into Providence. Now you don't and transit is free to those who choose (unlike GoGo) to travel into Providence without begging permission from the CVA leadership first.
From our perspective this can only be a good thing.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 15:16:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 08/01/2008 15:22:28
 Originally by: Rodj Blake
Cruoris Seraphim are an anti-Amarrian group of deviant blood cultists, and as such PIE will consider all those who co-operate with them as anti-Amarrian as well.
I donÆt think you ôgetö this discussion thread Rodj Blake. Let me explain it for you. This is the discussion where the CVA supporters attempt to pass themselves off as genuine free-spacers while sweeping all that nasty standings enclosure detritus under the rug and hoping that nobody notices the implications of their avowed political system.
Instead here you come and say that youÆll be branding PAK as ôanti-amarrianö for flying with their friends in Cruoris Seraphim since ôconsorting with anti-amarriansö is good enough for a -10/KOS in your book.
But the problem is that youÆll end up either needing to set PAK -10 on your principles or stomach them being on friendly terms with Cruoris and giving you a standings headache. And of course, if PIE set PAK to -10 then it wonÆt be long until the rest of the CVA Providence pack set GoGoÆs ôanti piratesö to -10 as well by a consequence of creeping standings enclosure that will ultimately achieve the same effects as a blanket NBSI policy would have done in the first place.
And this in a nutshell is the problem with CVA Providence. When you have a mix of political, ideological and religious factors determining who the ôsupreme authorityö considers a ôneutralö then the term becomes every bit as devalued and practically useless as the term ôpiracyö does when reported in the Citadel intelligence channels.
ôNeutralö to the Amarrian bloc does not mean ôneutralö.
To CVA and friends ôNeutralö means ôsomeone we are happy to have in providenceö
And these are two very different things.
What Rodj Blake achieves above in his typically bull-in-a-chinashop fashion is to graphically illustrate the problem for PAK in Providence. The self-appointed ruling power is never going to be happy for PAK to choose its own friends and enemies and while operating in region its going to be one demand after another since the CVA ôNRDSö is exists purely for its own political advantage and those standings will always be subordinate to the interests of CVA military power above any actual sense of ôethicsö.
Compare and contrast to the SF ROE for a view of how true respect for neutrality works. WeÆve just come out of a short defensive concord war with Cruoris Seraphim on the Providence borders. We have them set to -10 currently and consider them free targets - but do we care who they are friends with or who is friends with them? Absolutely not û if we saw Cruoris and PAK operating combined fleets in 0.0 together weÆd engage and target the Blood Raiders and ignore PAK up until the moment that we received positive confirmation of incoming aggression logs from them. If PAK chose not to interfere in the private unresolved feud between Cruoris and SF then they would remain neutral and untouched by our vessels.
Ultimately we leave the choice entirely to PAK as to whether they wish SF as an enemy or whether they prefer a neutral relationship.
Whereas Rodj Blake makes it abundantly clear that PAK will end up being set -10/KOS to Amarrian interests in providence for ôbeing friendsö with ôanti-amarrian interestsö and that ladies and gentlemen is precisely the practice of standings enclosurism in action and neatly summarises exactly the kind of mindset we came to Providence to fight.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 16:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
Nowhere did I say that PAK are either -10 or KOS. We have multiple individuals and groups in our database who are deemed to be anti-Amarrian but not sufficiently anti-Amarrian to be considered KOS.
Very well Rodj, if you were just impotently making murky threats that you never intend to follow through on we'll let the issue slide.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 16:36:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Octavinus Augustus
They (unlike yourself Ms Constantine) seem to linger under the impression that when visiting someone's home it is polite to abide by the rules set by the master of the house they are visiting.
The one thing we can agree on from your post Octavinus Auguster is that yes, PAK do appear to be acknowledging another force their "master" whereas Star Fraction and myself never will.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 17:24:00 -
[6]
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
Jade, if not shooting certain people means you have masters, I think we're both slaves. Then again, we both know that's ridiculous. I'm pretty sure you've sometimes cooperated with someone and not shot at their friends. That still doesn't make anyone your master, but yourself. I appreciate your effort to push our buttons, though.
I don't think you are understanding us very clearly GoGo. Since we don't shoot at neutrals there is rarely a problem with not shooting the "friends" of somebody we are cooperating with on a mutual -10 kill. But of course, if those "friends" are currently -10 to us then chances are we'll shoot them regardless unless diplomacy and standings renegotiation occur quite swiftly.
The reality here GoGo is that you have chosen to view CVA as the presiding power in Providence and submitted to their standings oversight in the selection of your targets. Its your choice to make of course, but as others have pointed out to you in this thread there aren't really any significant pirates in Providence at this time. Just political enemies shooting each other. Your likely targets in Providence will be Ushra'khan because they consider your submission to CVA standings regime to be a hostile act against their people's interest and this will lead to PAK and Ushra'khan fighting while CVA applaud the involvement of another "meatshield" class combatant force in the region.
Its inevitable that others will (and have) viewed your decision as cowardly and shortsighted mistake to submit and prostrate yourselves like tame slaver hounds to the CVA regime while CVA themselves consider you the latest propaganda glamour boys and girls to triumph their success in mismarketing protectionist imperialism as faux freespace in Providence.
Still all is said and done it is your free choice to do this thing. As it is my free choice to say that you are embarrassing yourselves in this humiliating display of surrender and forelock-tugging obedience to a tyrannical government ever bit as corrosive to the essential nature of freedom as those imaginary "pirates" you think to hunt in Providence.
But I imagine this is a discussion you wanted to have since you specifically authored this thread and part addressed it to the Star Fraction. Please don't act all surprised about our response and opinion of your actions thereby expressed.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 18:12:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 08/01/2008 18:14:44
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
I remember many occasions where you and yours have allied to closed-space alliances or NBSI pirates to achieve your aims. I find it amusing and hypocritical that you would accuse us of this behaviour.
I think you should throw away the "CVA playbook of rhetorical strategies" that Garreck appears to have lent you GoGo. There is a big difference between allying with and submitting too. You are not part of any kind of equal arrangement with CVA, you have agreed to limit your activities against pirates to those individuals and entities who are listed on the CVA kill list. You are under notice that your associations "will be watched". You have sought (and been granted) a license to hunt CVA-approved targets in Providence as employees and functionaries.
It is the height of ridiculous and grotesque fancy for you to state that the SF diplomatic ROE that affords us the opportunity to fire on mutual -10 targets alongside anyone in space as and when we think appropriate is in any way similar to your arrangement with CVA which sees you in the role of penitents and petitioners careful to mention your obedience to their claim of sovereignty in Providence and in nowise free to so much as "jump" unless you are authorized in advance to do so. Do not delude yourself GoGo.
Quote:
At the end of the day, we don't give a **** what others think. We don't need anyone to tell us that we are brave, free or anything. It's sad to think that there are capsuleers out there who think anyone would. Anyone who wants to try and force us to bow to their power without first seeking our consent may very well discover the depths of their mistake, though.
You posted the thread GoGo, you obviously cared enough to do that. You asked for opinions and you have been given them.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 18:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
No Jade. Don't really recall asking for your opinion about anything. I just wanted to know are you shooting at us or not. That's already been resolved.
Originally by: GoGo Yubari
but I'd like to know of your stance before we run into each other in local space.
You should do something about that memory GoGo.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 18:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kehmor
CVA are not allied with any pirate forces in the area that I am aware of. Therefore it is ridiculas to suggest we are submitting to their will in any way. submitting to their will would include shooting all targets they regarded as hostile. I think this discussion is solid proof that this is not the case.
You are opening up a rather large tin of worms there Kehmor. Goonswarm, IAC, their hangers on and lamprey-fish alliances are NBSI class combatants and shoot neutrals (that being precisely the same category of target that you are going to be engaging Ushra'khan on) Difference being if you shoot IAC or the Goons in Providence during an important CVA op you'll find yourself being censured or straight KOS'ed. Further of course, you have even Sev3rance and CSA itself in the KBP pocket - both alliances confirmed hostility against Star Fraction by aggressing us from neutral with no prior hostility on our part. A "pirate" action no? or was that straight politics?
Point being Kehmor that you are going to have a very hard time finding "pirates" in providence in any sense you recognize the word while you will find political allegiances and feuds and NBSI class entities cooperating with space enclosurists to mutual self interest.
As for you submitting to their will. Clearly you are since you asked their permission to come to Providence and operate and have promised to double-check your targets against their KOS book. If that isn't "submitting to the will of a stronger power" I don't know what it is. I think everyone would have more respect for your position if you hadn't sought the permission of the CVA in advance and simply announced your intention to hunt genuine NBSI class combatants wherever they might be found. Lets face it, you aren't that far away from Bleaklands and the Muffinmen if you wanted to seek action there.
Instead you're in the position of antagonizing Ushra'khan by your cooperation with CVA standings enclosurism and ensuring that you will be fighting on the KBP gate regularly against forces opposing CVA in Providence. That makes you supporters of the CVA regime and doubtless keeps you in their good books but its not going to win you any respect or understanding from those who are opposing the cloying stink of CVA imperialism here.
Point is Kehmor you have to check your targets with CVA KOS list.
You are assured to be fighting Ushra'khan.
Your effective place in the fighting is pretty much clarified.
I fully expect to see you cooperating with CVA in KBP against Ushra'khan and the free populous in the immediate future and while we are bound by our ROE not to engage you unless you aggress us first it doesn't mean I'm going to be silent about what a regressive and humiliating stance I believe PAK has taken in this issue. I hope you re-think it. In time I suspect you will.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 19:09:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kehmor
how is this an different from the way SF act in high sec. You only shoot those that concord deem -10 while operating in concord controlled systems. Yet many of these you would shoot while elsewhere? Am I right?
Actually you are incorrect. Star Fraction does not shoot -10 security level pilots unless we ALSO have them tagged to -10 Hostiles to Star Fraction. We don't care what Concord have to say about a pilots personal record - we do care about their corporation/alliance ACTIONS towards Star Fraction. If we see a -10 sec level NEUTRAL pod with a huge bounty drifting by one of our patrols in lowsec we will not shoot it.
By the same measure, if we see a prime -10 hostile target traveling in Lowsec we will attack regardless of criminal flagging and Concord security standing loss.
We also reserve the right to attack in hisec against a non-wardecced -10 target if and when the circumstances were appropriate and damage inflicted would equal or exceed the weight of shipping lost. Yes Kehmor, the Star Fraction will "suicide-gank" a -10 freighter if we believe we can do it, and the damage inflicted will be significant and worth the cost of the operation.
Point being we only care about concord classification insomuch is it affects operational and opportunity cost of engagements. In all ways and times it is Star Fraction standing that sets the ultimate authority for our pilots on target/neutral ROE. No other entity in the star cluster has authority over our pilots.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.01.08 19:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kehmor
And we only care about CVA's standings in so much as it allows us to effectively operate in providence. At this time we beleive we can operate more effectively against pirate forces in providence while respecting the rules laid down by the ruling power. If this means one or two targets are off limits to us in their jurisdiction so be it. It is better than wasting time firing upon CVA who pose no real threat to the innocent capsuleers of New Eden.
I think you mean "who pose no real threat to innocents who have decided to comply with the amarrian supremacist agenda in Providence." there Kehmor. And since as I think most agree there are no real Pirates in Providence you are inevitably going to be spending your time shooting CVA's political enemies.
"I might not have meant anything by it" |
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